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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]
Welcome to the Competency Conversation Shaping Graduate and Research Learners,
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presented by the Musk Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Learning and the team at the Learning Curve podcast.
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All right. Our guest today is Doctor Rachel Penrod Martin, an associate professor in the Department of Neuroscience here in the College of Medicine.
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Today, we'll discuss her experiences and insights related to competency based education
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and how it can help prepare learners for success in their health care careers.
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Thank you so much for joining us, Rachel. Thank you so much for having me. All right.
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To kick us off, what first sparked your interest in competency based education? Yeah.
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So I am the assistant dean of academic affairs in the College of Graduate Studies,
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which is the college that oversees academic programs for graduate students and master's students in biomedical science,
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clinical research, um, medical sciences, and our programs are a mixture of some of them have accrediting bodies with standards that,
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you know, the students are expected to have when they graduate,
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and others are more amorphous, and they're not defined by a specific professional agency or a specific accrediting body.
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And one of the things that, you know, we really,
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really recognize from competency based education is how helpful it is in curriculum development and refinement,
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and also how valuable it is to students in giving them a really clear set of goals so that they can self-reflect and know where they are,
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so that we can be using a common language in all of the different assessment settings.
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And so our dean, Dean, Michael Bouchard, you know, initiated this process.
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And so we have been building a competency based model, starting with our biomedical sciences PhD and master's programs,
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and then moving out into our other programs over time.
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Yeah. So we had Doctor Bouchard join us in the spring for our conference.
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We got to hear a little bit about the work that, um, College of Graduate Studies is doing currently within CBE.
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You mentioned that you guys are kind of at the beginning stages. So where are you right now and where do you guys hope to go?
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Yeah. So at this point we have worked with our graduate council,
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which is program directors and program coordinators and staff and student and
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trainee representation to define our overall or master's level competencies.
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And so we have our, you know, universal quote unquote competencies.
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The step that we're at right now is working with our individual programs to define their program level outcomes and objectives,
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many of which are going to be extensions of the universal.
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But for some programs, they're going to be really specific things that those trainees need to learn skills to develop.
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And we want to make sure that we're capturing the specifics of each program and defining a standard for the degree as a whole.
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And so we're at that program level. And then our next step will be curriculum level, course level, and then back up to the top.
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Because the other thing that is great about competency based education is it
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it helps you to establish an iterative process for reviewing your curriculum,
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defining the standards for what the different you know, whether it's a course, an activity, an assessment.
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And so we're we're enthusiastic about getting this whole pipeline kind of in place and then working on top of it year after year to maintain,
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improve and grow our programs. Awesome.
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And as you guys have been working, what misconceptions have you had to work through as you've talked with some of those stakeholders,
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as well as maybe some unexpected wins that you've had throughout your process so far?
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Yeah. So I think, um, the, the unexpected one is just how broad people's understanding of competency based education is what people think.
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That is when we say it. So for a lot of folks, there's concern of like, oh man, this is going to get so granular.
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And these tiny little things that like, how are we going to measure them or assess them,
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or how do we decide whether they're important and needing to sort of step back from that and say,
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oh, no, like we're going to do this at these individual levels.
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Um, I think also, you know, if a curriculum is working, quote unquote, working,
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right, producing students that are passing their courses and getting their degrees,
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there may be some resistance to like revisiting all that, again, not wanting to do that work again.
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So I think another big thing that we are learning is, you know,
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preparing resources and guidance and making it as easy as possible to engage in the process because that helps us with buy in.
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it. It means that people have more time to think about the actual, important, relevant stuff and less about the.
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But where do I write this thing? Or, you know, what does this.
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How is this defined? And I think unexpected wins are because we are working with a variety of stakeholders.
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And, you know, we're having these ongoing conversations. We're getting different types of perspectives.
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We're even getting different strategies for how the programs are defining their objectives
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and relating them to curriculum or relating them to the universal competencies.
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And so we're seeing a lot of different models of like how to accomplish it.
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And each time we see it now, we can provide that as an example for the next group that's going to do it.
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So we're we're kind of building this corpus of resources and perspectives and um, you know, to,
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to continue to support all of our programs as we institute these competency based education.
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And that's the heart of CBE that everybody can do it a little bit differently, and we can adjust and modify based off the needs of our learners.
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But in your case, your programs and what they need, your tailoring,
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your support and your faculty development to how they're approaching it and what kind of supports that they're going to need along the way.
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Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's very helpful because again, you know, we're all involved in sort of different aspects of the education of these trainees.
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You know, some people are purely in a laboratory setting. Others do a ton of coursework.
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Other others are really involved in setting, you know, the the rubrics for our major assessments and our candidacy exam or our dissertation defenses.
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And so everybody's got an angle and a thing that they're like, well, the student must be able to do that.
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And if you can just get enough of those, it kind of the form just kind of fills itself out.
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Yes. And then those rubrics become more meaningful.
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They're not just here's a grade based off this rubric, but the rubric actually means something to the faculty members.
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And it also means something to the students. And you talked earlier about student advocacy.
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You said you brought some student learners into your conversations as well.
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And I feel like in CBE we give a voice to students and they know where they are.
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They know what they're really good at. They know what they need to work on,
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and it gives them an opportunity to own their learning in a way that I don't think traditional education has been able to do for them.
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And I particularly think this stage of education agency is critical.
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You know, you are in the process of being trained to be a leader, to be independent,
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to make decisions for yourself based on your expertise, to have opinions and voice them and be able to defend them.
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These are all elements of these training programs, and so engaging them in the process is ultimately providing them a training activity.
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Gotta remember to write that down as a, you know, joint governance.
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That's one of our our leadership kind of training elements. Right.
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So it all kind of feeds back on itself.
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And I think the rubric thing is really important.
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Um, there's a lot of value to defining rubrics, having a mixture of like point based and competency based,
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really thinking about when we're applying each kind of rubric and the setting that the assessment is taking place in.
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And so that is another one that we're we're not there yet, but I'm very excited to get to that one.
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As you guys implement the rubrics for your competency based rubrics.
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Um, depending on the setting,
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have you seen assessment practices change or do you think they might change based on when we might be using those competency rubrics?
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Are we going to need to adjust our assignments? Do you see that coming? Yeah. I think that we are going to need to diversify our assignments.
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Um, because we are going to need more opportunities to assess the different competencies.
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Right. In a lot of courses, it's exam based, but exams only give us a sense of one level of Bloom's Taxonomy.
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It's like remembering the answer.
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Some of it might be a little bit of synthesis, but there are there are a lot of different skills they need to demonstrate.
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And so we need to make sure that we're providing an opportunity to for them to demonstrate,
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receive an assessment and, and have a sense of what they need to do next.
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So I suspect that rubrics are going to change assessments and create an opportunity
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to have new strategies for assessing progression through these competencies.
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And you mentioned earlier that the importance of the faculty buy in and getting them and all the stakeholders into the conversation,
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and I think that's really important before you start changing assessments so that folks understand the why behind the conversations that we're having,
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because we don't want to change assessments again if they seem to be working fine.
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But if we know the why and we begin to naturally do these things, then I think faculty members will see, okay,
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I actually do need to change if we want to hit this goal and we want to actually,
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um, you know, do this in the best way possible, the most efficient way possible.
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The, the, you know, the way that's best for our learners. It will happen more organically if they've been bought in from the beginning.
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Yeah. The why is key because that's the first question that you get when you say we're going to institute this thing.
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And then that's the second question you get when we say how we're going to do the thing.
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And then it's the third question, right? Like, why is the question?
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And I think, uh, you know, for, for our faculty who are invested in the training of this next generation of,
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of scientific leaders and research leaders, um, you know, saying like, who do you want?
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Is your colleague who what do you what what do you what skills do you need out of your peers?
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Because that's what ultimately these trainees are going to become.
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And so there's also a little bit of opportunity for sort of like reflection of like.
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Hmm. So when I was in training, nobody ever taught me this. And boy, I wish they had.
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Okay, well, let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah. You know, we talk about the hidden curriculum all the time.
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It's only hidden if you don't directly address it.
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If you make it a competency to cover those things, and you create a structure in which you can, then it's not hidden anymore.
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And everybody knows. And they're better prepared. Right? So that that mixture of like having a really good why, which is about student success,
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it's about, uh, you know, national prominence of our graduates, their role as leaders,
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and then also an opportunity for self-reflection of like, man, when I got to this point in my training,
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I wish someone had told me this and it's like, well, then let's do it for somebody else.
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Yeah, we'll we'll when you know better, you can do better. That's right. Um, and I think that has helped.
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It happened within my own journey within CBE is like, okay, I can never go back after I've learned this,
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after I've seen the impact that it has had on my own students and my own classroom.
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You can't you can't do it another way once you've seen the other side.
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Yeah. And I think, um, this generation of learners, and I don't know if this is specific to,
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to our college, but, um, one of the things that they really want is guidelines.
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They want to they want to explicit expectations. They want to know if they're making progress at the right pace.
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They want really clearly laid out benchmarks. And, you know, this is exactly how you create that, right.
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Competency based education means that they know exactly why they're taking the courses,
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that they're taking what the activities that we're asking them to to participate and lean into our accomplishing for them.
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They're getting, you know, we have forms where you meet every six months and somebody fills out a bubble that says you're a three on communication.
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What does that actually mean? Right. Having a rubric where we explain what that means, so that it also helps our faculty to give clearer feedback.
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Right. Because what is a one versus a two. How do I tell a two?
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How to be a one if I don't see that right.
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So again, it comes back to room like rubrics and assessments and alignment and clarity and predictability for the trainees.
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Clear is kind. Yeah. Clear is kind. I also think, too, when students know what they can do, they can go into a job interview much more prepared.
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So when they leave us and maybe they don't actually leave the enterprise, maybe they're going to stay right here at USC.
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That would be, you know, a great goal.
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But they can go into a job interview and say, I can do this because I've done it in this setting and in this setting,
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and I have the confidence to be able to advocate for my own worth, because I know what I've been able to do.
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And I can give clear examples of it because it's been laid out for me,
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and I can see the why behind a certain assignment or project, because I see how it, you know, aligns with our competencies.
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And then I can walk away and say, but I can do this with patient care because I have already done it.
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And here's an example. Yep. Yeah. I think the language of being able to express your value is one of the things that's
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really hard when when we're doing our career development series and it's like,
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hey, do you have experience in compliance? Right. And everyone's like, no.
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And then it's like, well, wait, did you help write an IRB protocol or an air hook protocol?
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So these are the institutional compliance for human and animal research.
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It's like that's compliance. Like that's that is you understanding. You've done this your reporting.
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So like you know I think again connecting activities means you can assign a skill that you learned in that by doing that activity.
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And it just makes it that much easier to sell yourself in all these different settings.
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Because one of the things that we think is really important for this generation of
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learners is making sure that they see themselves in any role that they're interested in.
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That's relevant. Right. Like historically this is an academic.
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You know, they're going to go in academia or for our clinical trials,
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they're they're going to serve a particular role in a clinical setting or our master of medical science.
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This is preparing students to go on to for a subsequent degree. Right.
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Um, and yeah, I just I think I totally lost my train of thought.
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That's okay. But yeah, the the having the language.
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Yes. Have knowing what your skills are. Being able to talk about them in multiple different settings and being able to see how you fit
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into a variety of subsequent career opportunities so you can enter the workforce confident.
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Yeah. And where you land and that you know how to speak to the different, uh, you know,
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potential employers and industries and positions that you might be applying, applying to.
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And you, you're only going to know, uh, What?
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How to describe yourself when somebody when we've talked about what is the scale?
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I mean, you can't walk into an interview and say, well, I had an 87. Yeah.
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What is it? Yeah, I'm really good. Well, what what can you do for me other than just the the be in a class?
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What does that mean? Yeah. And I feel like the doctor of philosophy and the masters of science, these these degrees in particular.
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Like. Like I said, they don't have an accrediting or professional body that is saying to be a biomedical scientist,
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you have to have these skills or these experiences. Um, and they can be kind of loosey goosey.
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And yet we're training thousands of people a year across the country, and they are headed into similar,
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you know, career outcomes with a degree from Musk versus another institution.
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And I think competency based education also gives us an opportunity to set a standard.
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And, you know, we define excellence for our trainees and we can define it really clearly, which I think is also very appealing when they're going out.
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Right? Yep. Having the language saying, I went to a program that trained me in each of these major domains,
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and here's examples of what I did to learn those skills and how I know I'm good at it.
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That's going to give them a leg up on institutions that don't have it so clearly defined and don't have the and
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it gives em USC a leg up as well when we're trying to get people into those programs because students want that.
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They want to know why they're doing what they're doing.
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They want to know if they're doing it correctly, and they want to know what more they need to be doing.
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And this is about reinforcing the agency of of, you know, saying, I need these skills.
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Here's how my college is helping me. Here's how my program is helping me, here's how my pie is helping me, and here's how I help me.
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Right. Giving that agency and ownership back to the students. Back to the learner.
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Um, as we have begun this conversation here at MSK.
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We know that folks are doing this across the university. We did a conference back in the spring.
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We have our summer series that's dedicated to competency based education.
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But as folks, listen to your podcast here today, what do you want them to take away from our conversation?
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Um, I think just the, the, the myriad of benefits of introducing this kind of, uh,
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structure for programs and how that initial resistance really melts away when you can clearly talk about why it benefits learners,
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why it benefits educators, why it benefits the college, the department, the program.
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Right. Um, and being able to really clearly communicate that.
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And I think also sharing resources because like I said, you know, I'm working with a very specific type of faculty.
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These are basic science researchers in the College of Medicine, right.
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They're going to have a different perspective from the College of Nursing or pharmacy or dental medicine.
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Right. And um, We are building a lot of resources for our process based on the feedback that we're getting from our folks.
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I feel like we should all probably make a central repository,
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because I suspect that although the language of our specific competencies will be different,
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the best practices for how to go from know to competency,
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and then how to go from competency to continual improvement would be conversations that we could benefit from across the institution.
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The other thing that I thought about when I was preparing for the podcast has to do with like institutional level competencies, right?
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So we're talking about college level competencies and program level and even course level outcomes, right?
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We're getting very granular. But I wonder if we have an opportunity to do one step actually back.
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And I think AI is a really optimal place to to consider this because it's clearly an interprofessional skill.
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It's going to be relevant in multiple, whether it's research, clinical, regulatory,
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all of these different roles that are are trainees and Musk are going to take on.
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And it might be interesting to think about what are Musks, what is it to say?
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I was a student at Musk. What do what do I know?
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Just by virtue of the fact that I was at this institution?
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Yep. We have the profile of a South Carolina graduate for high school students.
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And so I have thought about that as well. Like, okay, what does that look like to be an Musk graduate?
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What do we want all of our graduates to graduate with and that they can all kind of stand on these pillars or these competencies that we have.
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And I think we have great values here at Musk that our students should walk away with.
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But have we defined them and how they look in practice, in practice with patients or clinical settings or whatever it may be.
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So I would love to have that continued conversation with many people across the university.
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The AI component is coming. They are working on those AI competencies for Musk students and faculty members.
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So I know that there's a lot of things in the works,
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and we at Catl hope to be able to bring all of those resources and collaboration efforts together.
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That's one of the things we're doing with Summer series, is pulling all of the articles that have been published from Musk,
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folks, bringing all of that together, what folks are doing within the different departments, can we get that bank together?
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If you ever wanted to jump in and see what nursing was doing, here's some of their resources and things that have helped their faculty.
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So we're hoping to continue those collaborative efforts. But yeah, thinking big picture dream world.
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What does an Musk graduate look like? Is a great, um, you know, goal for us to be looking at within the next year or so.
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Um, so is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience today?
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I think, uh, just emphasizing the importance of these competencies or outcomes or objectives, the specificity of them.
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They don't have to be granular. It doesn't have to be like you get an A or better on exam A, but it does need to be specific.
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So making sure that competencies are actions, it's verbs.
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It's things that they do or show or make right.
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Um, having the competencies align with not just them in.
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For example, I'm going to talk about the laboratory setting because I'm most familiar with PhD in biomedical sciences.
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Um, not just what they need to do in the laboratory, but what they need to do in a professional setting,
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in a scientific communication setting, in a leadership setting. Right.
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Um, so another reason why having all those perspectives matter, because it helps us catch all those different domains where maybe,
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you know, person A doesn't really spend much time in that domain and doesn't really think about it.
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But the reality is that a good number of our trainees are going to need those skills.
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So yeah, I think really thinking about your program, the goal of your degree program, what your trainees are going to do next,
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and helping them to set themselves apart from other programs and show what's special about them and how prepared they are.
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And I think the competency based editor really makes that easy.
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Once you've got it in place. Yeah, getting it in place is not an easy feat.
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Takes a lot of time. Um, but it is worth it when you get to the other side.
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And so there are some changes that are having to happen, and that takes work and resources and lots of stakeholder involvement.
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Um, but hopefully as you continue to progress and you guys fine tune your approach,
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um, it becomes a little bit easier with the, the programs that are to come.
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Yeah. I'm also very excited about the summer series, the AI competency one, because like I said, I feel like we're all talking about it all the time.
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You know, we need to define for our degree what the expectation is, but that feels like something that we can also define on an institutional level.
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And, you know,
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cattle and other groups are doing a lot of work to try to define all of these elements of how we use it and what we need to know about it.
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And, and so it'll be nice to start thinking about it from the competency perspective,
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and not just the legal perspective or the infrastructure perspective or the policy perspective.
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Yeah, yeah. And I think again, going back to what we said earlier,
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students will be able to walk into an interview and say, these are the things that I can do with AI.
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This is how I've used AI in an ethical and appropriate manner, and how I hope to use AI in this role.
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And they'd have the language behind it, which again, I think you've spoke to earlier,
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is so important for students to be able to articulate that to potential employees.
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Yeah. Yep, I think so. Well, thank you so much for being here today and we greatly appreciate it.
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Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, I appreciate it.
