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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]
Narrator: Welcome to the Competency Conversation Designing and Assessing Health Care Leadership
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programs presented by the MUSC Center for the Advancement of Teaching and Learning,
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and the team at the Learning Curve Podcast. Welcome back to the Competency Conversation.
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Julia Liebenrood: Today we're joined by Doctor Eric Richardson,
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chair and professor in the Department of Healthcare Leadership and Management within the College of Health Professions.
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Nikki Strong, Curriculum and assessment coordinator within the same department.
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And Katie Lamb, instructional designer and instructor for the College of Health Professions.
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Together, they bring a combined perspective spanning leadership, curriculum design, assessment, and instructional strategies.
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In this episode, we'll explore how competency based education is being applied across health care leadership
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programs and how intentional curriculum and design practices support meaningful,
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measurable learning outcomes. Welcome, everyone.
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Good morning. Hi. To get us started, we'd love to hear from each of you.
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Can you each share a bit about your roles and how your work connects to competency based education within the College of Health Professions?
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And Eric, I'll let you start us off. Eric: Sure. Thank you.
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So as we mentioned earlier, my role is as chair of the department.
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And so my focus really is on spearheading and coordinating the efforts related
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to converting a lot of our programs and whether they be new or existing,
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uh, into, uh, competency aligned frameworks where we have better measurement systems for not only our programmatic assessment,
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but also for our assessment, for our, you know, university related accreditation and specialty accreditors.
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Nikki: And I can go next. Um, I am the curriculum and assessment coordinator for the program.
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So, um, I am deeply entrenched in the competencies that we're using to make sure they are
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aligned across the program and that we're mapping them at the appropriate levels.
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So they're scaffolded across the programs.
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Um, also, um, looking at how what technologies we can use in the LMS to make sure that is clear to the learners and the instructors.
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Um, and also looking at how to, um, upskill and train our faculty in the best practices with competency based education.
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Um, particularly in grading, um, and so forth.
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And I work closely with Eric and Katie on both sides of that.
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Um, Katie, with kind of the technology and design course of it. And then Eric, on the more administrative aspects of rolling out CBE.
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Yep. Katie: And adding to what Nikki said, I, um, partner a lot with Nikki on what the alignment and the strategies to build those rubrics and everything,
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but also on the tech side, I'm helping build it out in the bright space courses, um, for faculty and learners.
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Wonderful. Thank you all so much for sharing a little bit about the work that you all are doing.
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I'd love to hear, at least from one of you. Um, what sparked your interest in CBE and what brings you joy within working with this, um, rollout?
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Sure. I'll be happy to, to start off with this one. So, um, you know, I really became interested in competency based or competency aligned education,
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um, when working with one of our specialized accreditors for our MHA programs,
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which is what we refer to as Cami, uh, which is the Commission for Accreditation of Healthcare Management Education.
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Um, and, you know, we're really focused on trying to determine whether students are prepared for their professional practice,
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not just about course completion. And so oftentimes people think about, uh, completing courses, uh, you know, in the context of, uh, you know,
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traditional grades and traditional grades, often telling students, um, you know, what they know, but that's not necessarily true.
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Uh, when we're thinking about real world, uh, situations, uh, that require, you know, applied learning.
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Um, and obviously we talk often about how the students that we serve in our programs are all coming from very diverse backgrounds,
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and they're all ending up in very diverse destinations. And so, uh, we're having to meet a lot of, uh, different needs, uh, for different individuals.
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So, um, our work here, I like to frame this around.
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We often have, conversations around this concept of of of precision based learning.
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So if you think about precision based medicine, it's kind of the same kind of thought process applied to learning.
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And that's where we can focus in on the ability of our or our ability to use competency data from our courses and our programs to
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better understand and support each of these students developmental needs as they progress from the beginning of their program,
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uh, to the end of their program. And, you know, in their current career trajectory towards the future, you know, goals and outcomes.
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Thank you. And you actually segue perfectly into my next question, which was for Nicki.
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When you guys are looking at data, what data is most important and meaningful to your team and how do you guys utilize that data?
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Yeah, sure. Um, so obviously we have signature assessments where we're looking at how students are
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performing on specific competencies at a specific point in time in the curriculum,
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and we are introducing them across the spectrum of, um, introduced, reinforced and mastered.
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And so when you were looking at the data, it's important to see, okay,
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how are the students performing on our introduced level signature assessments and how that's feeding into their reinforced level up into the mastery.
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So for example, if we notice at the introduced level, um, they're performing at a low level, um,
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that lets us know, hey, something we need to do something when we're introducing this competency skill.
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Um, we're not, you know, maybe introducing it. Right, or it needs some more, um, scaffolding there.
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Um, conversely, you might have it there performing well on the introduce reinforced.
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And then when they get to mastery level, um, some things, you know, they're not performing as high or, you know, they're below the average.
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They're. And so we can take a look at is it something with the mastery assessment or are we missing a piece in the
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introduced and reinforced that should be there to help support that task and the mastery assessment?
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Um, and so yeah, that um, really helps us take a look at our gaps where, um,
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students are performing and how we can make our curriculum stronger in those particular areas where we're introducing,
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reinforcing or mastering it across the curriculum. And then Katie or Eric, if you guys want to follow up,
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what are some ways that the curriculum has changed, um, for your faculty members because of this work?
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Sure. I'll be happy to take that one. I think the biggest shift for faculty, um, is really, um, you know, changing the way that they think about, uh,
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braiding and assessment and their courses as well as, um, moving into a mindset of continuous improvement.
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So we talk a lot about how this data can be used to support improvement rather than compliance.
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So, um, you know, oftentimes conversations around accreditation or assessment is all about compliance.
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Um, but we're really trying to to shift the culture and the thought process about how it is that we can learn from each course
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and from the aggregate over time about how our students are performing and how that data helps us to become better faculty,
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better teachers, and produce better outcomes.
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Because that data is going to help us to be able to pinpoint specific areas where students are struggling consistently.
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Um, it's also going to help us to be able to, uh, break down silos, uh,
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between curricular areas and get people to think more holistically about how
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it is that they are contributing to the larger whole of an academic program.
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Um, and then from a longitudinal standpoint, this data.
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Helps to support and again, from this continuous improvement culture, um, us to be able to think about, uh, longitudinal competency, uh, and,
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and how it is that students change over time and then how we can meet again workforce expectations as that also shifts and changes over time.
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To add to that, I think the faculty mindset is also switching from did the students complete this assignment and turn it in on time,
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and what grade did they get to more of? Can they perform this skill?
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Are they competent and able to perform this skill in a real world experience outside of the program?
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So that shift for faculty mindset is important. Are there any other misconceptions that you guys have run into throughout this process.
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Um, I think that the biggest thing is.
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Again, it's it's provided a good opportunity for training, uh, and clarification around what it means to assess learning outcomes,
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uh, what it means to assess learning outcomes at the targeted level appropriate for the type of student.
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And also, as Nicky referenced earlier, when we're thinking about Irma mapping, um, at the, you know,
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particular point in the curriculum at a specific, you know, level that needs to be demonstrated to, to see that the student is progressing.
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So I think that, again, um, you know, there's a lot of great teaching taking place.
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Uh, lots of our programs in the department are very long standing programs.
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Uh, but this is a really great opportunity for us to really zero in on how it is
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that we can use some of these best practices and competency aligned learning,
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competency based education, uh, to really be able to again focus on learning from a precision based standpoint.
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Thank you. All right. The next thing I wanted to ask about is just the transition to CV is definitely impacting your students, your faculty.
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You guys have hit on that a little bit.
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Katie, from your point of view as an instructional designer, how does that change how you approach faculty, how you're able to support them?
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Because this is a shift and it's not just within this one program.
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You guys are going to be scaling this through other programs. So how do you see that in your role in the future, how you're going to support faculty?
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Um, I have found that my conversations with faculty, um, have gotten a little deeper,
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and I'm able to ask better questions about why an assignment is important and asking the why behind what they're asking their students to do.
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And I think not just necessarily to get an answer from them,
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but for them to start reflecting on why am I asking students to take this multiple choice quiz and also asking other questions like,
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is there a better way to assess students abilities than just this quiz or just this discussion prompt?
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So my conversations have shifted a little bit with faculty.
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I can imagine. So, um, just all of this is new and different for all of them.
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So it's, um, takes a village to, to get this process rolling.
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Um, what, any of you guys care to jump in and tell me a little bit about the faculty buy in and how that process has gone?
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Um, with getting folks on board and their understanding.
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You talked about training, Eric, but how have you guys been able to support your faculty through this?
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And what's the buy in been? Sure. Uh, you know, again, I, I think it would be important for us to to mention that this is is not an easy process.
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Uh, it is very challenging. Um, you know, there's a lot of, uh, of challenging norms and and, again, clarifying misconceptions.
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Um, and so again, Mickey and Katie and I talk about often how the best way to establish a plan and the best way to really, um,
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you know, increase the probability of success and sustainability is to get faculty involved from the, from the forefront.
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And so, um, many of these efforts, again, that we've undertaken so far have started with, uh, you know, the division director level, uh,
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pulling the division director and discussing kind of, again, some of the things that we're looking at from a program quality standpoint.
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Uh, or areas for improvement standpoint at the program level.
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And then, uh, again, bringing faculty alongside as we begin to, uh, roll out, uh, revised versions of the courses.
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Um, and, you know, um, that has has been also a little.
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Bit different, just based on each person's experience with, you know, competency based education and learning frameworks.
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Uh, you know, some people are farther along than others, uh, in terms of their understanding of what competency around learning looks like.
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Um, others are more in the infancy phase, uh, or stage of knowing.
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Um, but, you know, even for those that have been in the infancy stage, um, at the after,
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they really get involved in the process and begin to understand kind of how how it is that this operates, the why behind what we're doing.
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Um, I feel like that many of those individuals have began to, uh, you know, fully embrace this process and better understand,
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kind of like, again, this focus that, you know, what the larger outcome was some that looked like.
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And I'll chime in to what's helped a lot with buy in is, um, we were fortunate enough to have doctor Jean Gordon, who couldn't join us today,
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but, um, she has experience with CBE and she was our first, um, quote unquote guinea pig with getting this rolled out.
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So the a program, um, we've been able to use a lot of what we created for it.
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And with doctor Jean Gordon as examples to show the next set of programs that we're working with.
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And so, um, that's been super helpful to show them, hey, let's show you what this looks like when it's fully developed out in a course.
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Let's show you how students will interact with it. Let's show you what it looks like from an instructor view.
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Um, and so that's been super helpful, um, to, to roll it out across various programs.
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But, um, as Eric mentioned, there's many, you know, many people involved in many of the programs at different various levels.
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And so it's been helpful that we have this kind of first set of courses to one learn from and then two to pull examples from,
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to show them realistically what it looks like and how you're going to utilize it.
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Um, you know, it's a lot of moving parts.
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So we haven't fully implemented our, um, faculty training yet because we're just trying to get it up and going.
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And so, um, eventually we'll get some more robust faculty training around what CB is.
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CB is for our programs and how we expect or, um, best practices for utilizing this competency based framework, um, etc..
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Perfect. Thank you.
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Um, yes, Eric, we have heard from almost everybody that we've interviewed that this is a complicated, complex, gruesome project to work on.
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Um, a lot of folks have shared that it was worth the work.
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So works. I know you guys are fully in the trenches,
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but hopefully you guys can see the light at the end of the tunnel and that it'll all be worth it once you get to the other side.
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It sounds like from what Nikki was sharing, you guys are able to use what you've learned from one project and and take it over to a different program,
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which I think is helpful and will hopefully, um, you know, minimize the headaches as you move forward.
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But it is it's work to, to revamp everything. And it does take a lot of folks that are on the ground and doing the work.
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Um, so we recognize that. And your sentiment has been shared amongst the other folks that we have chatted with over the last few weeks.
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Um, moving to the next, um, part, maybe a little bit on the happier side.
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What are some unexpected wins that you guys have seen? Because we've also heard that there's been some of those too.
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So what are some positive things that have come out from this transition?
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I think at a departmental level, I think some of the wins for me is, again, uh, those, um, you know, the ability to start to see excitement,
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uh, from faculty who are, who are really beginning to understand, uh, what competency based education, uh, and Alonzo learning looked like.
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Um, and who are, you know, again, uh, I think one of the most rewarding things is when you, when you start to see the creativity, um, start to,
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uh, play out as people have discussions with us, um, you know, it gets people thinking about, uh, you know, how could we do this innovatively?
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Uh, what ways could we, you know, deliver this curriculum in a in a different manner?
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Uh, that's going to really provide added value to our students here at USC.
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Um, and for me, that that's one of the biggest and most rewarding things, I think, for the student side of things.
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Um, the student's piece of being able to to better also understand what it means to be in a competency aligned program.
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Um, we talk often about how, you know, we have these competency models.
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Uh, we have these competency descriptions,
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but oftentimes there's a disconnect between what it is that we're sharing in a student's understanding of what it is that they're engaged in.
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Like, do they really understand the competency model? Do they really understand what it is that they're working on and how it how that, you know,
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competency or set of competencies play out in, you know, the current or future workplace?
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And so for me, that's the rewarding pieces.
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And the early wins for us is to be able to hear those positive stories from faculty or students, um, just related to this new experience.
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And I'll chime in to say, um, I think the wind that I've seen and it's slowly getting there,
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but especially with the MHA, is kind of a breakdown of some of the faculty silos.
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You can see when it's, you know, traditional based courses, um,
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and particularly with the process of trying to map competencies across the entire program,
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um, so that you're having to talk about, well, how are you introducing this in your course?
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How are you reinforcing it in your course? How are you mastering it in this course?
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You know, so having an understanding of I'm not just designing my course, I'm designing a program and um,
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and understanding how that and how each of their courses interact with each other,
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um, and seeing some of those aha moments with, um, you know, breaking down some of those silos that can happen in traditional based courses.
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And Katie, I know you shared the win of just going a little bit deeper with faculty and being
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able to have some more pedagogical conversations and questions thrown their way.
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Are there any other wins from the ID side?
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Um, on a little lighter note, it's really exciting to see all the hard work, um, in the modules in the course.
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Shell looking so beautiful and nice. So those winds are also very exciting.
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They're small, but they're the ones that keep us moving forward, so that's exciting to see all that hard work finally come to life.
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Yes, they're small wins, but they make a very big impact.
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So something to be proud of for all of you guys in the work that you guys have done over there.
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Um, my last question that I'll throw out in any of you guys, um, feel free to jump in and answer here.
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Where do you hope competency based education goes next at Musk?
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I think, you know, again, um, we we stand right now at a crossroads in higher education in general.
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Um, just in terms of of all of the things that are now available to us through, uh,
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AI enhanced tools and platforms to be able to take, uh, education and really learning science to the next level.
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Um, I'm hopeful that we really can embrace a lot of the, uh, you know, innovative mindset, uh,
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you know, know how and, and want to across the enterprise to bring that over into the university, uh,
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to really take some of these programs to the next level, uh, so that we can, uh, you know, really establish, um,
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what the future could be for programs, uh, in institutions that are similar to us and really in our national level.
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Um, we do a lot of work, um, in, you know, faculty development, uh, or in training and, uh, you know, research in this space.
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You know,
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and a lot of faculty across the nation are struggling right now with being able to uncouple a lot of the things that we've talked about today,
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which is like, uh, how do you assess grade, understand the students, you know, students performance, uh, you know,
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and uncouple that from what a work product looks like versus what the student actually knows and is taking away from the experience.
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Um, and I think a lot of the work that we're doing right now, um, is going to help us to be able to, uh, again, be ahead of the curve.
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Um, most recently, I think the example that could be used here is, um, for our department.
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Uh, we were the first, uh, Da program, uh, to ever be created in the US.
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Uh, and right now we're thinking about what the next, you know, that that program just turned 30 years old this year.
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Um, and we're right now thinking about, okay, over the next, you know,
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10 to 30 years in doctoral level education even, how can we embrace some of these things that we've learned, uh,
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and implemented on the graduate level side in the master's level programs into the Da level or doctoral level education,
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to really even be able to, you know, kind of trailblazer further on that space as well.
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Nikki, Katie, where do you want to see us go next?
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Yeah, I, I think I'll touch on, um, in Eric's kind of getting this going already with it, but it's exciting and I'm, I'm excited to see where it goes.
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Is the kind of granular, stackable, um, lifelong learning, like microcontroller credentials that you can do with CBE.
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Um, and so, um, you know, not just, you know, traditional degree is usually all or nothing.
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You either finish with 120 credits or you leave with nothing but net.
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So this allows learners to leave with a, um, a credential that still is showing what they know how to do.
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Um, it's also a way to get buy in to maybe some learners who are interested in going to a full degree,
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but they just want to test it out and get something out of testing it out to,
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instead of just credits that are waiting to sit there till they till they finish.
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So with this, they're able to stack some of these competencies into a nice, um,
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certificate credential that they can carry with them, whether they decide to stay,
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stay with the program or they decide to, you know, dive deeper into that particular, uh, credentialing area and go that route in their career.
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And so I think that is, um, a, a fantastic avenue for us for a variety of programs to pursue,
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to look at how to get those adult learners in the door and how to get them something on their way out, whether they stay full time or not.
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And I agree with Nikki being more flexible.
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I think that would be a great next phase for Musk is finding finding those programs where that flexibility is,
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um, where that flexibility can happen for learners.
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Because with people these days, everybody's so busy, it's hard to get those degrees and do all that stuff.
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So making it so it's available and flexible for learners, I think that's very important.
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And I think Musk, um, would definitely benefit from pushing more towards that direction.
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We agree and we have seen that begin to happen.
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So we're excited that that's the future that you guys would like to see over in the College of Health Professions.
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We really appreciate your time today. And thank you so much for joining the competency conversation.
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Thank you.
